Juan Goytisolo et l'Espagne de Franco

Pierre Dumayet

...of Spanish author Juan Goytisolo, here is Para Vivir Aquí, published by Gallimard. Para Vivir Aquí is a series of short stories that constitute a discovery of Spain by a Spaniard. A discovery of Spain by a Spaniard, it seems like a game but it's not, absolutely not. It's the tale of a real experience that was a bit like yours, wasn't it?

Juan Goytisolo

Right.

Pierre Dumayet

You had to discover Spain.

Juan Goytisolo

Exactly. Meaning that, in Spain, we live isolated from others. In my social circle, meaning the upper class, we ignore everyone else. So discovering the rest, it's a genuine discovery, it's not a literary discovery.

Pierre Dumayet

When you were 20, you didn't know anything about Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

Absolutely not, I only knew my environment. I knew absolutely nothing about others.

Pierre Dumayet

You didn't read the newspapers?

Juan Goytisolo

You don't learn anything by reading newspapers about Spain, or at least newspapers that are published in Spain.

Pierre Dumayet

You didn't know what a strike was?

Juan Goytisolo

Not at all. I must say that when I was 20, I had the opportunity to see one and I was totally surprised. I didn't even know what it meant.

Pierre Dumayet

What? "I saw one", what does that mean?

Juan Goytisolo

I saw a strike at the Barcelona tramway, people that weren't entering it, so I didn't understand that people could strike. I didn't understand the reasons that people could have to be on strike. For me, it was completely mysterious.

Pierre Dumayet

You didn't think that the tramway could not run for reasons that were not mechanical?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes.

Pierre Dumayet

It was during your military duty that you started to discover Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, it was the first time that I had the opportunity to know people from completely different backgrounds than mine. It interested me in their lives, their problems, things that I didn't have the opportunity to encounter before.

Pierre Dumayet

But it's because you wanted to make this discovery that you did it.

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, because I must say that in Spain, students, meaning the sons of the upper class, we join the army to command, meaning that we're never at the same level as the others. Therefore, I too was a non-commissioned officer when I had an interest in blending in with soldiers. The people that were with me, 60% of them were illiterate. They came from regions in southern Spain that I had never travelled through. I didn't know them.

Pierre Dumayet

You say students, sons of the upper class as if there were only students, only sons of the middle class amongst students. Is this true?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, 99% of them are sons of the upper class.

Pierre Dumayet

Can you list the successive discoveries that we make in this book at the same time as you did?

Juan Goytisolo

Well, in the 8 tales, I discovered... I show certain discoveries. For example, the first tale, it's during a eucharistic conference that is held in Barcelona during the time when pilgrims came from all over the world, they rid the city of its prostitutes.

Pierre Dumayet

They evacuated the prostitutes?

Juan Goytisolo

They evacuated them, yes. So I went to a small village where these women, it was, for me, a sort of opposite of the environment that the newspapers wrote about. Later on, in the other tales, I speak of the discovery of the ghettos, the lives of people from the harbour, workers from Barcelona and also, especially, the discovery of the South, meaning the south of Spain where living conditions are completely different from conditions in the north of Spain. The South, it's a completely under-developed region.

Pierre Dumayet

But Andalusia, when you were young, didn't you know that it was what it was?

Juan Goytisolo

Not at all, not at all.

Pierre Dumayet

Has your book been published in Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

No, it's banned in Spain, and I had to have it published in South America like other books that I've published.

Pierre Dumayet

And in Spain you can find... you can find the Argentinian edition of your book in Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, I think that it can be found in the better book stores, it's not advertised but you can find it.

Pierre Dumayet

Under the counter?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, I think so, yes.

Pierre Dumayet

All of your books are banned?

Juan Goytisolo

No, no. I have books that were published in Spain. There are books that weren't cut out by censors, while others were cut out.

Pierre Dumayet

Did you think about censorship when you wrote this book?

Juan Goytisolo

Well, first of all, I was tempted to think about it but I didn't want to. I think that we, the writers, we have to do our job as authors and let the censors do their job of censoring. I don't want to do any self-censorship.

Pierre Dumayet

Do you think that censorship is currently a very profound ailment for Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, it really is a very profound ailment because all of the environments that lies create around it meaning these sorts of lies in the press, the newspapers, it even occurs in private life meaning that since everything surrounding people is lies, they can't see truth, even in people's private lives.

Pierre Dumayet

What makes you say that?

Juan Goytisolo

I think that people aren't being sincere with each other. Here, let me give you an example. I've read many manuscripts of Spanish authors that were sent to me.

Pierre Dumayet

They live in Spain?

Juan Goytisolo

That live in Spain, Spanish authors, especially many manuscripts written by women. In Spain, women write a lot. However, we could think that in Spain, where there isn't any divorce, it's perfect, the situation, that it's not amoral, as they would say it is in France. But, from the manuscripts that I've read, Spanish marriage is a sort of horrible mess, and we get the impression, from what we read, that most couples need to hope for a separation.

Pierre Dumayet

Do you live only in France?

Juan Goytisolo

No not at all. I spend about half the year in France, the other half in Spain.

Pierre Dumayet

And you go back there whenever you want?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, I enter and leave freely.

Pierre Dumayet

What do you think the mission of Spanish writers is, right now?

Juan Goytisolo

Well, since there isn't any press that informs freely, that informs readers, the Spanish public, we respond to the public's need for this information... painting the most accurate and truthful portrait of Spanish society. Meaning that the Spanish novel represents the service that the press does in France, to the point that I think that, if one day we had to make a story about Spanish society during these years, we'd have to read the novel rather than read the newspapers that were published.

Pierre Dumayet

Do Spanish writers tell the truth?

Juan Goytisolo

Yes, we try to tell the truth and we try to show what we see.

Pierre Dumayet

There is no escape, no literary escape currently?

Juan Goytisolo

No, I mean it's so unreal, the atmosphere that surrounds us in our social relations that for us, reality, it means to escape.

Pierre Dumayet

I thank you.